Common Sabbatarian Arguments

I have been ministering to an Adventist friend for quite sometime. Quite unique, I’m doing this thru a very popular communication medium here in the Philippines we call “texting” (SMS).

I’m not a ‘”texter” so I often times find it hard to explain certain things. I compiled an answer to his common arguments and questions which represents most of the Adventists’ approach to the topic of the Sabbath. I’m posting it here for the benefits of those who are interested.

1. Sabbath was instituted in creation
2. Sabbath is the only ordained day in the Scriptures.
3. Jesus observed the Sabbath and so do I
4. It is prophesied that people will change the laws of God. Constantine changed the Sabbath observance to Sunday.
5. Sunday worship is not found in the Bible.

1. Sabbath was instituted in creation

There is no evidence in the Bible that God commanded the Sabbath before the days of Moses. Genesis says that God rested, but nowhere does it say that the first humans were commanded to follow his example. Before humans sinned, they lived in a blessed and holy time, in which they were in a state of peace with God, trustful and obedient. They did not need to labor in the way they later did. They did not need to set aside a day for communion with God, for they had it continually. The first human did not need to rest on the second day of his life.

God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, but that does not mean that he required people to rest on it. As the Jubilee year shows (Lev. 25:8-12), time can be holy without requiring a rest. In the days of Moses, the creation week was used as a pattern for commanding the seventh-day Sabbath, but that pattern does not prove that the Sabbath existed ever since creation.

If God commands the Sabbath, then we should keep it, of course, even if we have to adjust our schedules, suffer financially, and alienate our families. But if God does not require the Sabbath, then it would be wrong to put this unnecessary burden on anyone. When the effect on our lives is so great, we need to make sure that we have a clear command from God, not a questionable inference. Genesis does not command the Sabbath, never mentions the word, and never pictures anyone as keeping it.

Abraham kept all of God’s commands (Gen. 26:5), but this does not mean that he kept all the annual festivals, sacrificed his firstborn animals, or did any of the other laws that Moses gave. This verse tells us that Abraham was obedient to all the laws that applied to him, but it doesn’t tell us which laws applied. The Jewish Talmud says that Abraham did not keep the Sabbath; the Jews believed that the Sabbath was given, as the Bible describes, through Moses to the Israelite people.

Deut. 5:2,3 says “The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us…”

2. Sabbath is the only ordained day in the Scriptures.

If it was so, the Gentiles, who are not Sabbath worshipers, should have been given an explicit command from Paul to observe this “only ordained” day. On the other hand, Paul said otherwise:

Col. 2:16-17 says, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”

And while the debate of which day is more holy than the other, Paul has this to say, “In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. Each person should have a personal conviction about this matter.” (Roma. 14:5 NLT). It seems that Paul is not concerned as to what day is more holier than the other and did not obliged the Gentile Christians like you and me in observing the Jewish Sabbath.

3. Jesus observed the Sabbath and so do I.

Gal 4:4-5 says, “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.”

Jesus was born under the law which means he was subject to all its demands. He was circumcised, he kept the Passover, the Feast of Tabernacles – all the Jewish feasts and regulations. The entire package was in force until Jesus fulfilled it all!

If we say that we need to follow Jesus’ example of observing the Sabbath, we ought not to pick only those practices that we see “fitted” to us. We NEED to be consistent and follow everything that Jesus observed. But obviously, we do not observe the other feasts that Jesus observed. And that’s alright, in fact, because Jesus came to fulfill the laws of Moses, which includes the Sabbath. And what he fulfilled, he ended.

4. It is prophesied that people will change the laws of God. Constantine changed the Sabbath observance to Sunday.

We have traditionally believed the Sabbatarian viewpoint that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday by the Catholic Church thru Constantine in 300 A.D.

However, that is not true. The Catholic Church did pass a decree that made it “official” throughout the empire, once Constantine became a Christian. It was to stop the teachings of those who were “Judaizing” – the same ones Paul deals with in Galatians and Colossians.

The early church had gone to using Sunday LONG before the Catholic Church was even formed.

Here are some quotes from early Christian theologians and writers.

THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS about A.D. 100 – “Wherefore, also we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead.”

THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS – A.D. 107 – “Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish Law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace…. If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and By His death.”

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTIONS: Church life in the 2nd Century: – “On the day of the resurrection of the Lord–that is, the Lord’s Day–assemble yourself together without fail, giving thanks to God and praising Him for those mercies God has bestowed upon you through Christ.”

IRENEAEUS: A.D. 155-202 – “The Mystery of the Lord’s Resurrection may not be celebrated on any other day than the Lord’s Day, and on this alone should we observe the breaking off of the Paschal Feast.”

PLINY’S LETTER, AD 107 – Pliny was governor of Bithynia, in Asia Minor, from AD 106-108. He wrote in AD 107 to Trajan, the emperor, concerning the Christians. This is what he said: “They were wont to meet together, on a stated day before it was light, and sing among themselves alternately a hymn to Christ as God….When these things were performed, it was their custom to separate and then to come together again to a meal which they ate in common without any disorder.”

THE EPISTLE OF BARNABAS, AD 120 – ” ‘Incense is a vain abomination unto me, and your new moons and Sabbaths I cannot endure.’ He has, therefore, abolished these things… Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day, also, on which Jesus rose again from the dead”

JUSTIN MARTYR (140 AD) – Justin’s ‘Apology’ was written at Rome about the year 140, only 44 years after the apostle John received the vision of The Revelation at Patmos. The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says this about Justin’s works: “In these works Justin professes to present the system of doctrine held by all Christians and seeks to be orthodox on all points. The only difference he knows of as existing between Christians concerned the millennium. Thus Justin is an incontrovertible witness for the unity of the faith in the Church of his day, and the fact that the Gentile type of Christianity prevailed.” In chapter 67 of his Justin’s first Apology, entitled, “Weekly Worship of the Christians,” writing to the pagan emperor, Justin states: “And on the day called Sunday all who live in cities or in the country gather together in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read….But Sunday is the day on which we all hold a common assembly, because it is the first day of the week on which God…made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.” The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, pp. 185-186

IGNATIUS, the third bishop of Antioch, who died in AD 108, wrote: “If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him… Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for “he that does not work, let him not eat.”…let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week]” “Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians,” The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pp. 62-63

TERTULLIAN of Africa, wrote around AD 200. In his Apology, Chapter 16, Tertullian says: “We solemnize the day after Saturday in contradistinction to those who call this day their Sabbath, and devote it to ease and eating, deviating from the old Jewish customs, which they are now very ignorant of.”
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http://www.sewanee.edu/Theology/patristicsw/f170/p170.html
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Resources/Texts/apFat.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/justin-apology2.html

5. Sunday worship is not found in the Bible.

True. Sunday worship is not found in the Bible. But “Sunday worship” and “Worshiping God ON A Sunday” are two different things. Sunday worship is what most sabbatarians accuse those Christians who congregate on Sundays. But these God-worshippers do not worship the day (other sabbatarian writers even go to the extent of saying they worship the pagan SUN). But they don’t – instead they worship the SON together as a congregation on Sundays just like what the early Christians did.

  • http://www.deebeedee.com/blog/ daniel

    I want to share something somewhat related. Did you know that our church rents the sanctuary of an SDA church? It works out perfectly for us! They meet on Saturdays, we meet on Sundays!

    I’m not sure though if they lean more towards the evangelical side or more towards the heretical side.

  • http://www.deebeedee.com/blog/ daniel

    I want to share something somewhat related. Did you know that our church rents the sanctuary of an SDA church? It works out perfectly for us! They meet on Saturdays, we meet on Sundays!

    I’m not sure though if they lean more towards the evangelical side or more towards the heretical side.

  • http://graceplace.ph Arnold

    That’s interesting! Because the common thing is for a (former) Adventist congregation (those who wanted to become ‘evangelical’ then goes out from the mother church) would rent an evangelical sanctuary. That means, the former SDAs who still are in the transistion thus worships on Saturday, would be using the sanctuary on Saturday and the evangelicals worship on Sunday. Its the other way around. :) I know of a Fil-Americal group in West Covina, CA (Gospel Life Community Church) who does this.

  • http://graceplace.ph Arnold

    That’s interesting! Because the common thing is for a (former) Adventist congregation (those who wanted to become ‘evangelical’ then goes out from the mother church) would rent an evangelical sanctuary. That means, the former SDAs who still are in the transistion thus worships on Saturday, would be using the sanctuary on Saturday and the evangelicals worship on Sunday. Its the other way around. :) I know of a Fil-Americal group in West Covina, CA (Gospel Life Community Church) who does this.

  • http://graceplace.ph Arnold

    test only

  • http://graceplace.ph Arnold

    test only

  • http://graceplace.ph Arnold

    yes test

  • http://graceplace.ph Arnold

    yes test

  • Pancho

    The Ten Commandments are very clear, and the fourth commandment is even clearer. It is not Sunday YHWH requires, it is the seventh day that YHWH blessed and made holy. If the transgression of the law is sin, then anyone who transgresses the Law written by the hand of YHWH is also a sinner, hence the necessity of our savior Jesus the Messiah. What is the true sign of love? Obedience, “if you love me keep my commandments” is the princible of love and obedience to God. Those who love God obey His Holy Law because they love Him.
    Can a sinner enter into Heaven? No. How do I know I´ve sinned? When the Law says, “Thou shall not commit adultery”, and I do so anyway, I have sinned and am in danger of the judgement unless I confess and repent.
    If you break one commandment you have broken all. By not keeping the only commandment that points to YHWH as the creator of heaven and earth, you are sinning, and are in danger of judgement, unless you confess you sin and repent, meaning you will by the grace of Christ and by love to Him obey ALSO his 4th commandment. The Sabbath is a sign between YHWH and man, Eze. 20:20 If the sabbath is a sign between God and man, then what I wonder is the sign between satan and man…a man made law?(sun-day)
    In Luke 23:54-56, the disciples of Christ are still observing the fourth commandment…why? because Jesus did not institute a different day to represent His creative power which only one day can, the sabbath day.-
    If you love God, you will keep all of His law, not manmade laws, and if you continue to refuse obedience to the law knowing the truth and without repenting, you will be judged.
    The only way God can inpute righteousness unto us is if we have confessed and repented of all our sins, breaking the 4th commandment is also a sin.

    p.s.
    Why did God tell the Israelites to remember the sabbath day if they had never heard of it before? Unless they had forgotten because of their slavery, and if thats the case, then the sabbath day WAS insituted at creation, because its the only commandment that tells us to remember a certain law. Love God with all your heart soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself is the sum of the 10 words.

  • Pancho

    The Ten Commandments are very clear, and the fourth commandment is even clearer. It is not Sunday YHWH requires, it is the seventh day that YHWH blessed and made holy. If the transgression of the law is sin, then anyone who transgresses the Law written by the hand of YHWH is also a sinner, hence the necessity of our savior Jesus the Messiah. What is the true sign of love? Obedience, “if you love me keep my commandments” is the princible of love and obedience to God. Those who love God obey His Holy Law because they love Him.
    Can a sinner enter into Heaven? No. How do I know I´ve sinned? When the Law says, “Thou shall not commit adultery”, and I do so anyway, I have sinned and am in danger of the judgement unless I confess and repent.
    If you break one commandment you have broken all. By not keeping the only commandment that points to YHWH as the creator of heaven and earth, you are sinning, and are in danger of judgement, unless you confess you sin and repent, meaning you will by the grace of Christ and by love to Him obey ALSO his 4th commandment. The Sabbath is a sign between YHWH and man, Eze. 20:20 If the sabbath is a sign between God and man, then what I wonder is the sign between satan and man…a man made law?(sun-day)
    In Luke 23:54-56, the disciples of Christ are still observing the fourth commandment…why? because Jesus did not institute a different day to represent His creative power which only one day can, the sabbath day.-
    If you love God, you will keep all of His law, not manmade laws, and if you continue to refuse obedience to the law knowing the truth and without repenting, you will be judged.
    The only way God can inpute righteousness unto us is if we have confessed and repented of all our sins, breaking the 4th commandment is also a sin.

    p.s.
    Why did God tell the Israelites to remember the sabbath day if they had never heard of it before? Unless they had forgotten because of their slavery, and if thats the case, then the sabbath day WAS insituted at creation, because its the only commandment that tells us to remember a certain law. Love God with all your heart soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself is the sum of the 10 words.

  • Pancho

    By the way, if the sabbath has been done away with, why does Isaiah´s prophecy about the New Earth and the New Heaven say that all will come to God´s Holy mountain to WORSHIP on the SABBATH DAY?

    God is Love and His character is represented in His law, if one is missing, the love of God is not perfect, But because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, so the law of stone written by His hand is also the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, because His character is eternal and the 10…not the 9 commandments, are also eternal.

  • Pancho

    By the way, if the sabbath has been done away with, why does Isaiah´s prophecy about the New Earth and the New Heaven say that all will come to God´s Holy mountain to WORSHIP on the SABBATH DAY?

    God is Love and His character is represented in His law, if one is missing, the love of God is not perfect, But because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, so the law of stone written by His hand is also the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, because His character is eternal and the 10…not the 9 commandments, are also eternal.

  • http://www.pickle-publishing.com/ Bob Pickle

    I’ve done some research into some of the early Christian quotes used to bolster the worship on Sunday argument, and the results were surprising. See http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/sunday-fraud.htm

    The reason why I came to this website today is that I am doing research right now on the Irenaeus quote above, and am trying to find out where it came from. Anyone know? Does it really exist, or is it fraudulent? You can email me from any page on my website.

    As far as the Bible is concerned, it is interesting that we do not have one single Bible text that says that the early Christians worshipped every Sunday. Neither do we have recorded one single Sunday morning worship service.

    It is much more likely that Paul was referring to the seven annual sabbaths in Colossians 2 than the Sabbath of the 10 Commandments, given the utter silence in Acts over any controversy with the judaizers about the Sabbath. The worst false rumor the judaizers could concoct against Paul just before his arrest was that he was teaching the Jews not to circumcise their children. If he had been teaching that we can break one of the 10 Commandments, the judaizers would have made hay over it.

  • http://www.pickle-publishing.com/ Bob Pickle

    I’ve done some research into some of the early Christian quotes used to bolster the worship on Sunday argument, and the results were surprising. See http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/sunday-fraud.htm

    The reason why I came to this website today is that I am doing research right now on the Irenaeus quote above, and am trying to find out where it came from. Anyone know? Does it really exist, or is it fraudulent? You can email me from any page on my website.

    As far as the Bible is concerned, it is interesting that we do not have one single Bible text that says that the early Christians worshipped every Sunday. Neither do we have recorded one single Sunday morning worship service.

    It is much more likely that Paul was referring to the seven annual sabbaths in Colossians 2 than the Sabbath of the 10 Commandments, given the utter silence in Acts over any controversy with the judaizers about the Sabbath. The worst false rumor the judaizers could concoct against Paul just before his arrest was that he was teaching the Jews not to circumcise their children. If he had been teaching that we can break one of the 10 Commandments, the judaizers would have made hay over it.

  • arnoldgamboa

    Honestly, I have no problem whether early Christians worshipped on Sundays or not because as far as I’m concerned, we can congregate whichever day we choose — may it be Sunday, Saturday or even any of the other weekdays. What I have a problem with is the teaching that New Covenant Christians SHOULD worship and observe the Jewish Sabbath. The gentiles in the time of the post resurrection were never asked to observe the Sabbath. If it were that important as most of us think today (as important as receiving the Mark of the Beast or the “seal of God”), it could have been mentioned explicitly in the New Testament. But there’s none.

    If you haven’t read Ratzlaff’s “Sabbath In Christ” yet, I suggest you do to have a balanced view on this. The discussion on the Judaizers and the circumcision issue in Acts has been fully covered there.

  • arnoldgamboa

    Honestly, I have no problem whether early Christians worshipped on Sundays or not because as far as I’m concerned, we can congregate whichever day we choose — may it be Sunday, Saturday or even any of the other weekdays. What I have a problem with is the teaching that New Covenant Christians SHOULD worship and observe the Jewish Sabbath. The gentiles in the time of the post resurrection were never asked to observe the Sabbath. If it were that important as most of us think today (as important as receiving the Mark of the Beast or the “seal of God”), it could have been mentioned explicitly in the New Testament. But there’s none.

    If you haven’t read Ratzlaff’s “Sabbath In Christ” yet, I suggest you do to have a balanced view on this. The discussion on the Judaizers and the circumcision issue in Acts has been fully covered there.

  • http://www.pickle-publishing.com/ Bob Pickle

    Hi Arnold.

    Eunuchs and uncircumcised Gentiles were forbidden from beoming part of the congregation of Israel (se, for example, Deut. 23:1), and thus were excluded from the “blessings” of the Old Covenant. In Is. 56 we have eunuchs and Gentiles pronounced blessed if they take hold of God’s covenant, in the context of the gathering into the church of the Gentiles in New Testament times (vss. 7, 8). Thus, the covenant they take hold of must be the New, not the Old.

    Thus, when Is. 56 pronounces a blessing upon eunuchs and Gentiles who keep God’s Sabbath, it is pronouncing a blessing on New Covenant Gentile believers who keep God’s Sabbath.

    This harmonizes with the teachings of Paul who said that “by the law is the knowledge of sin,” and, “Shall we continue in sin …? God forbid.”

    This was also taught in the typical sanctuary services, for the 10 Commandments in the ark defined what sin was, and were the reason why sinners had to bring sacrifices as substitutes. Thus, in the antitype, the 10 Commandments define sin, and provide the reason for why we need the savrifice of Christ on Calvary as our substitute.

  • http://www.pickle-publishing.com/ Bob Pickle

    Hi Arnold.

    Eunuchs and uncircumcised Gentiles were forbidden from beoming part of the congregation of Israel (se, for example, Deut. 23:1), and thus were excluded from the “blessings” of the Old Covenant. In Is. 56 we have eunuchs and Gentiles pronounced blessed if they take hold of God’s covenant, in the context of the gathering into the church of the Gentiles in New Testament times (vss. 7, 8). Thus, the covenant they take hold of must be the New, not the Old.

    Thus, when Is. 56 pronounces a blessing upon eunuchs and Gentiles who keep God’s Sabbath, it is pronouncing a blessing on New Covenant Gentile believers who keep God’s Sabbath.

    This harmonizes with the teachings of Paul who said that “by the law is the knowledge of sin,” and, “Shall we continue in sin …? God forbid.”

    This was also taught in the typical sanctuary services, for the 10 Commandments in the ark defined what sin was, and were the reason why sinners had to bring sacrifices as substitutes. Thus, in the antitype, the 10 Commandments define sin, and provide the reason for why we need the savrifice of Christ on Calvary as our substitute.

  • http://www.pickle-publishing.com/ Bob Pickle

    Here are a few more thoughts:

    1. It is a misnomer to call the Sabbath “the Jewish Sabbath.” Nowhere does Scripture call it thus. To the contrary, Christ said that He had made the Sabbath for man (Mk. 2:27). So biblically we should call it the Sabbath for man, never the Jewish Sabbath.

    “Adam” and “man” are the same word in Hebrew. In fact, Christ in Mk. 2:27 said “the man,” with the definite article. In Gen. 1-11, unless used as a proper noun, “Adam,” “man,” and “men” in the KJV are with but a few exceptions translated from the Hebrew equivalent of “the man.” It’s always singular, even when in our Bibles it occurs in the phrase “daughters of men” in Gen. 6.

    First “the man” refers to Adam and Eve, and then in Gen. 6 it begins to refer to all his descendants.

    In other words, Jesus could not have been clearer that He had made the Sabbath for Adam, Eve, and all their descendents. That includes you and me.

    2. According to Acts 15, laws that applied to Gentiles in OT times, like the prohibition against eating blood, still apply to Gentiles in NT times. In contrast, nowhere in the OT are Gentiles told they have to be circumcised. Thus they don’t have to be in NT times.

    3. We know the Judaizers were after Paul. The worst baseless rumor they could conjure up against him was that he had taught Jews not to circumcise their children (Acts 21:21).

    a) The silence of Acts over any controversy between Paul and the Judaizers over the Sabbath, and b) the Gentile Luke’s frequent reference in Acts to Paul worshipping on the Sabbath, sometimes with Gentiles and sometimes when there was no synagogue in town, indicate that Sabbath keeping was never an issue in those times. Everyone knew that Gentile Christians were supposed to keep all 10 of the 10 Commandments.

    4. As far as the Mark of the Beast goes, it is interesting that the beast himself claims that the change of the Sabbath is his mark of authority. Of course, we could assume that he doesn’t know what he is talking about, but then we would have to explain why Dan. 7:25 predicted that he would think to change times and laws, and why the fourth commandment is the only one of the 10 that the beast thinks he has changed.

    5. As far as Dale Ratlaff’s books go, his information is suspect. He admitted to me in the summer of 2002 that a certain accusation in another of his books was bogus, but that accusation still remained in the updated 2003 edition of that book. I would find his books far more credible if he was willing to ensure that they contained only truth and never lies.

  • http://www.pickle-publishing.com/ Bob Pickle

    Here are a few more thoughts:

    1. It is a misnomer to call the Sabbath “the Jewish Sabbath.” Nowhere does Scripture call it thus. To the contrary, Christ said that He had made the Sabbath for man (Mk. 2:27). So biblically we should call it the Sabbath for man, never the Jewish Sabbath.

    “Adam” and “man” are the same word in Hebrew. In fact, Christ in Mk. 2:27 said “the man,” with the definite article. In Gen. 1-11, unless used as a proper noun, “Adam,” “man,” and “men” in the KJV are with but a few exceptions translated from the Hebrew equivalent of “the man.” It’s always singular, even when in our Bibles it occurs in the phrase “daughters of men” in Gen. 6.

    First “the man” refers to Adam and Eve, and then in Gen. 6 it begins to refer to all his descendants.

    In other words, Jesus could not have been clearer that He had made the Sabbath for Adam, Eve, and all their descendents. That includes you and me.

    2. According to Acts 15, laws that applied to Gentiles in OT times, like the prohibition against eating blood, still apply to Gentiles in NT times. In contrast, nowhere in the OT are Gentiles told they have to be circumcised. Thus they don’t have to be in NT times.

    3. We know the Judaizers were after Paul. The worst baseless rumor they could conjure up against him was that he had taught Jews not to circumcise their children (Acts 21:21).

    a) The silence of Acts over any controversy between Paul and the Judaizers over the Sabbath, and b) the Gentile Luke’s frequent reference in Acts to Paul worshipping on the Sabbath, sometimes with Gentiles and sometimes when there was no synagogue in town, indicate that Sabbath keeping was never an issue in those times. Everyone knew that Gentile Christians were supposed to keep all 10 of the 10 Commandments.

    4. As far as the Mark of the Beast goes, it is interesting that the beast himself claims that the change of the Sabbath is his mark of authority. Of course, we could assume that he doesn’t know what he is talking about, but then we would have to explain why Dan. 7:25 predicted that he would think to change times and laws, and why the fourth commandment is the only one of the 10 that the beast thinks he has changed.

    5. As far as Dale Ratlaff’s books go, his information is suspect. He admitted to me in the summer of 2002 that a certain accusation in another of his books was bogus, but that accusation still remained in the updated 2003 edition of that book. I would find his books far more credible if he was willing to ensure that they contained only truth and never lies.

  • Jamie

    Dear Bob, I am very interested in learning more….I have been doing my own reading and have found the Sabbath truth to be very convincing. Please share with me why you believe that so many Protestant churches are teaching Israel in prophecy and the support of a new Israel? Please feel free to respond to my e-mail Himay1@aol.com

  • Jamie

    Dear Bob, I am very interested in learning more….I have been doing my own reading and have found the Sabbath truth to be very convincing. Please share with me why you believe that so many Protestant churches are teaching Israel in prophecy and the support of a new Israel? Please feel free to respond to my e-mail Himay1@aol.com

  • arnoldgamboa

    Hi Bob.

    1.I understand where you’re coming from. But, I should say, you are
    missing the very essense of the verse. The verse does not intend to
    convey *to whom the Sabbath was made for* rather it conveys the
    *purpose of the Sabbath*. Take a look at how some modern translations
    put it — let’s look at New Living Translation.

    “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and
    not people to benefit the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:27)

    It is saying, the Sabbath was made TO BENEFIT man and not the other
    way around. It is a misunderstanding if one will read into the verse
    such as what you have mentioned above.

    In the first place, how can the Sabbath that was given to the
    Israelites be present in the days of Adam and Eve before the fall.
    Anyone can just review the 4th commandment (in Exo. 20) and see how
    impossible it is. How can they stop working on the seventh day if they
    are not working on the other 6? They are in perfect relationship with
    God back then, right? No work, no sweet. Do they have household to
    restrain from working? Nope. Are there foreigners living with them?
    Nope. What I’m saying is, even the way the 4th commandment was
    written, it is very clear that it is very Jewish.

    2. Notice that Acts 15 did not ask the gentiles not to eat the forbidden
    foods as in that of Lev. 11. Again, reading into the verse doesn’t
    help in this case, we can only accept what was written. If it was the
    Lev. 11 law that the gentiles needed to perform, it could have been
    specified. But no, it wasn’t. They were just asked to

    1) abstain from eating food that were sacrifice to idols. The reason
    is discussed fully in 1 Cor. 8.
    2) abstain from eating blood. Probably because this is most offensive
    to Jewish Christians. (again, review 1 Cor. 8 on Paul’s comment on
    why we should avoid offending fellow Christians with a different level
    of maturity as ours)]
    3) asbstain from fornication. Most likely because gentiles are very
    much prone to this. They came from an immoral culture.

    The Jerusalem council is clear — do not burden the gentile bretheren
    with the Jewish laws and practices. I believe that these are add on
    requests from the council for the reasons mentioned above.

    3. It is a common knowledge among Jews that Sabbath is just to be
    practiced within the bounds of the old covenant community. They know
    first hand that Sabbath is never given to any nation but to Israel.
    (Exo. 31:16,17). Because circumcision is the entrance sign to the
    Jewish covenant community, Paul’s attack on circumcision is an attack
    to the complete Jewish laws and practices, which includes Sabbath
    keeping. So, there isn’t a need for the Judaizers to specifically
    mention about the Sabbath when their whole Jewish system is covered by
    the controversy on circumcision.

    4. There’s actually a challenge buy Robert Sanders here in his site:
    (The Pope Nor the Catholic Church Changed Sabbath to Sunday!)
    http://www.truthorfables.com/Pope_Did_Not_Change_Sabbath_Sunday.htm

    You may want to answer his challenge. There were no records of any
    Pope changing the Sabbath to Sunday. They only claim the change
    because Christians prior to Romanism is already congregating on
    Sundays.

    5. I have emailed Pastor Ratzlaff to confirm this allegation. I will
    post in my site his response for the benefit of those who are viewing
    our conversation.

    As far as I’m concerned, Dale Ratzlaff has helped thousands, including
    myself, in understanding the grace of God and escaping the claws of
    legalism. That, for me, is a direct result of an effort inspired by
    the Holy Spirit.

  • arnoldgamboa

    Hi Bob.

    1.I understand where you’re coming from. But, I should say, you are
    missing the very essense of the verse. The verse does not intend to
    convey *to whom the Sabbath was made for* rather it conveys the
    *purpose of the Sabbath*. Take a look at how some modern translations
    put it — let’s look at New Living Translation.

    “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and
    not people to benefit the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:27)

    It is saying, the Sabbath was made TO BENEFIT man and not the other
    way around. It is a misunderstanding if one will read into the verse
    such as what you have mentioned above.

    In the first place, how can the Sabbath that was given to the
    Israelites be present in the days of Adam and Eve before the fall.
    Anyone can just review the 4th commandment (in Exo. 20) and see how
    impossible it is. How can they stop working on the seventh day if they
    are not working on the other 6? They are in perfect relationship with
    God back then, right? No work, no sweet. Do they have household to
    restrain from working? Nope. Are there foreigners living with them?
    Nope. What I’m saying is, even the way the 4th commandment was
    written, it is very clear that it is very Jewish.

    2. Notice that Acts 15 did not ask the gentiles not to eat the forbidden
    foods as in that of Lev. 11. Again, reading into the verse doesn’t
    help in this case, we can only accept what was written. If it was the
    Lev. 11 law that the gentiles needed to perform, it could have been
    specified. But no, it wasn’t. They were just asked to

    1) abstain from eating food that were sacrifice to idols. The reason
    is discussed fully in 1 Cor. 8.
    2) abstain from eating blood. Probably because this is most offensive
    to Jewish Christians. (again, review 1 Cor. 8 on Paul’s comment on
    why we should avoid offending fellow Christians with a different level
    of maturity as ours)]
    3) asbstain from fornication. Most likely because gentiles are very
    much prone to this. They came from an immoral culture.

    The Jerusalem council is clear — do not burden the gentile bretheren
    with the Jewish laws and practices. I believe that these are add on
    requests from the council for the reasons mentioned above.

    3. It is a common knowledge among Jews that Sabbath is just to be
    practiced within the bounds of the old covenant community. They know
    first hand that Sabbath is never given to any nation but to Israel.
    (Exo. 31:16,17). Because circumcision is the entrance sign to the
    Jewish covenant community, Paul’s attack on circumcision is an attack
    to the complete Jewish laws and practices, which includes Sabbath
    keeping. So, there isn’t a need for the Judaizers to specifically
    mention about the Sabbath when their whole Jewish system is covered by
    the controversy on circumcision.

    4. There’s actually a challenge buy Robert Sanders here in his site:
    (The Pope Nor the Catholic Church Changed Sabbath to Sunday!)
    http://www.truthorfables.com/Pope_Did_Not_Change_Sabbath_Sunday.htm

    You may want to answer his challenge. There were no records of any
    Pope changing the Sabbath to Sunday. They only claim the change
    because Christians prior to Romanism is already congregating on
    Sundays.

    5. I have emailed Pastor Ratzlaff to confirm this allegation. I will
    post in my site his response for the benefit of those who are viewing
    our conversation.

    As far as I’m concerned, Dale Ratzlaff has helped thousands, including
    myself, in understanding the grace of God and escaping the claws of
    legalism. That, for me, is a direct result of an effort inspired by
    the Holy Spirit.

  • http://www.pickle-publishing.com/ Bob Pickle

    Arnold,

    1) According to Paul and John, the 10 Commandments define what sin is, for both Jew and Gentile.

    2) Whatever argument applies to the Sabbath applies also to women, for both were made “for” man. Mark and 1 Cor. use the very same Greek preposition translated “for” in the KJV.

    3) Since Jesus made everything, He was the one who made the Sabbath.

    4) The Greek grammar for “man” in Mk. 2:27 mandates that “man” refer to Adam and all his descendants.

    5) The 4th Commandment says “Remember” because it existed prior to Sinai.

    6) It definitely existed 4 chapters earlier in Ex. 16, and it is implied when Pharaoh complained that Moses was causing the people to rest from their brudens (Ex. 5:5).

    7) Your argument regarding Acts 15 implies that Gentiles are free to steal, which of course is absurd. Thus, you likely admit that there are more precepts than just those fur that are required of Gentiles today.

    8) Regarding your use of Ex. 31 to limit the Sabbath to just Jews, contrary to Mk. 2:27 and Is. 56, notice that the only Scriptures that describe the New Covenant likewise limit it to Israel. But we have been grafted in, as Paul puts it, and thus can inherit the promises given to Israel. One then needs a text that says that spiritual Israel is exempted from keeping one of the 10 Commandments.

    9) Robert Sanders tends to not do his homework. Since Daniel 7:25 says that the popes would think to change the Sabbath, and since the 1530 Augsburg Confession admits that Rome was making great boasts that she had done that very thing, I’d tend to take Daniel 7:25’s word for it over Sanders’ any day.

    10) Regarding Ratzlaff, he admitted to me in August 2002 that an accusation in one of his books and on his web site was wrong. Since he had said he would correct his site, I wrote him in February 2003 asking when he was going to do that. I had to cover all the same ground again, and finally he said he was removing that document until he could correct it, which was really impossible to do.

    I later borrowed a copy of his book, and was really disappointed to find the same bogus and slanderous accusation in the 2003 edition of his book.

    Why not give http://www.biblelight.net/sylvester-I.htm a try. It may provide some of the answers you are looking for.

  • http://www.pickle-publishing.com/ Bob Pickle

    Arnold,

    1) According to Paul and John, the 10 Commandments define what sin is, for both Jew and Gentile.

    2) Whatever argument applies to the Sabbath applies also to women, for both were made “for” man. Mark and 1 Cor. use the very same Greek preposition translated “for” in the KJV.

    3) Since Jesus made everything, He was the one who made the Sabbath.

    4) The Greek grammar for “man” in Mk. 2:27 mandates that “man” refer to Adam and all his descendants.

    5) The 4th Commandment says “Remember” because it existed prior to Sinai.

    6) It definitely existed 4 chapters earlier in Ex. 16, and it is implied when Pharaoh complained that Moses was causing the people to rest from their brudens (Ex. 5:5).

    7) Your argument regarding Acts 15 implies that Gentiles are free to steal, which of course is absurd. Thus, you likely admit that there are more precepts than just those fur that are required of Gentiles today.

    8) Regarding your use of Ex. 31 to limit the Sabbath to just Jews, contrary to Mk. 2:27 and Is. 56, notice that the only Scriptures that describe the New Covenant likewise limit it to Israel. But we have been grafted in, as Paul puts it, and thus can inherit the promises given to Israel. One then needs a text that says that spiritual Israel is exempted from keeping one of the 10 Commandments.

    9) Robert Sanders tends to not do his homework. Since Daniel 7:25 says that the popes would think to change the Sabbath, and since the 1530 Augsburg Confession admits that Rome was making great boasts that she had done that very thing, I’d tend to take Daniel 7:25’s word for it over Sanders’ any day.

    10) Regarding Ratzlaff, he admitted to me in August 2002 that an accusation in one of his books and on his web site was wrong. Since he had said he would correct his site, I wrote him in February 2003 asking when he was going to do that. I had to cover all the same ground again, and finally he said he was removing that document until he could correct it, which was really impossible to do.

    I later borrowed a copy of his book, and was really disappointed to find the same bogus and slanderous accusation in the 2003 edition of his book.

    Why not give http://www.biblelight.net/sylvester-I.htm a try. It may provide some of the answers you are looking for.

  • Sharon

    Thank you for your clarity on this subject of the Sabbath. My cable T.V. here carries 3ABN (3 Angel Broadcasting Network) a Seventh Day Adventist station. I watch it a lot. It is really very interesting, but I noticed they do a little bit of wresting of the scriptures. Sometimes, thay quote a scripture and say it says one thing, and when I look it up, it doesn’t. I came out of the Mormon Church, so I know a little about that. Anyway, thanks, again.

    A follower of Christ.

  • Sharon

    Thank you for your clarity on this subject of the Sabbath. My cable T.V. here carries 3ABN (3 Angel Broadcasting Network) a Seventh Day Adventist station. I watch it a lot. It is really very interesting, but I noticed they do a little bit of wresting of the scriptures. Sometimes, thay quote a scripture and say it says one thing, and when I look it up, it doesn’t. I came out of the Mormon Church, so I know a little about that. Anyway, thanks, again.

    A follower of Christ.

  • edwin

    some of your views I agree. but something you did not consider, I mean regarding your belief that; It’s ok to have worship on SUNday because you are not worshiping the DAY but the SON.

    You said;
    “If we say that we need to follow Jesus’ example of observing the Sabbath, we ought not to pick only those practices that we see “fitted” to us. We NEED to be consistent and follow everything that Jesus observed.”

    Did you know that the Messiah was born approximately 6 or 4 BC? that time they are using the Julian Calendar and Julian calendar was introduce 46 BC. Therefore Yahshua ( Jesus if you must!) was observing the Sabbath day from Friday dust to Saturday dust.

  • edwin

    some of your views I agree. but something you did not consider, I mean regarding your belief that; It’s ok to have worship on SUNday because you are not worshiping the DAY but the SON.

    You said;
    “If we say that we need to follow Jesus example of observing the Sabbath, we ought not to pick only those practices that we see fitted to us. We NEED to be consistent and follow everything that Jesus observed.”

    Did you know that the Messiah was born approximately 6 or 4 BC? that time they are using the Julian Calendar and Julian calendar was introduce 46 BC. Therefore Yahshua ( Jesus if you must!) was observing the Sabbath day from Friday dust to Saturday dust.

  • edwin

    one more thing you said again;
    “But obviously, we do not observe the other feasts that Jesus observed. “And that’s alright,” in fact, because Jesus came to fulfill the laws of Moses, which includes the Sabbath. And what he fulfilled, he ended.

    I think you “misunderstood” Him ( Yashua ) and the apostle’s intent of the epistle. Yashua said;
    ” Do not think that I have come to abolish the LAW or the Prophets, I have not come NOT to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth until the heaven and the earth disappear, not the smallest letter not the least stroke of a pen will by anymeans disappear from the Law until everything accomplished. ” Matt.5:17-18

    obviously, the haeven and the earth is not yet disappear AND all are not yet ACCOMPLISHED, He (Yashua) need to comeback again for His “BRIDE” and YaHWeH will stablish His KINGDOM here on earth.

  • edwin

    one more thing you said again;
    “But obviously, we do not observe the other feasts that Jesus observed. “And thats alright,” in fact, because Jesus came to fulfill the laws of Moses, which includes the Sabbath. And what he fulfilled, he ended.

    I think you “misunderstood” Him ( Yashua ) and the apostle’s intent of the epistle. Yashua said;
    ” Do not think that I have come to abolish the LAW or the Prophets, I have not come NOT to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth until the heaven and the earth disappear, not the smallest letter not the least stroke of a pen will by anymeans disappear from the Law until everything accomplished. ” Matt.5:17-18

    obviously, the haeven and the earth is not yet disappear AND all are not yet ACCOMPLISHED, He (Yashua) need to comeback again for His “BRIDE” and YaHWeH will stablish His KINGDOM here on earth.

  • http://arnoldgamboa.com Arnold

    Hi Edwin.

    Obviously, though, you missed the main point of the argument when I said “But …, we do not observe the other feasts that Jesus observed.”

    The Seventh-day Adventists — being the largest sabbattarian group, for instance observe the seventh-day Sabbath as Jesus observed, but DO NOT observe, say Yum Kippur, AS JESUS OBSERVED. That’s being selective. The point? Not everything that Jesus did as a Jew is applied to us as New Covenant Christians.

  • http://arnoldgamboa.com Arnold

    Hi Edwin.

    Obviously, though, you missed the main point of the argument when I said “But …, we do not observe the other feasts that Jesus observed.”

    The Seventh-day Adventists — being the largest sabbattarian group, for instance observe the seventh-day Sabbath as Jesus observed, but DO NOT observe, say Yum Kippur, AS JESUS OBSERVED. That’s being selective. The point? Not everything that Jesus did as a Jew is applied to us as New Covenant Christians.

  • Phil

    Hi there! Edwin,Old Covenant law was in force until the cross and the sending of the promised Spirit at Pentecost when that covenant was fulfilled and had no more divine sanction..Christ himself in the New Covenant which he established by his blood was the reality to which the Old Covenant directed the Jew. Jesus was born under law (Gal4v4), but he died to set men free from it so that they could bring forth fruit to God by the Spirit (Rom7v4). There’s now been a change of the law (Heb7v12,18,19).

  • Phil

    Hi there! Edwin,Old Covenant law was in force until the cross and the sending of the promised Spirit at Pentecost when that covenant was fulfilled and had no more divine sanction..Christ himself in the New Covenant which he established by his blood was the reality to which the Old Covenant directed the Jew. Jesus was born under law (Gal4v4), but he died to set men free from it so that they could bring forth fruit to God by the Spirit (Rom7v4). There’s now been a change of the law (Heb7v12,18,19).

  • Phil

    Sorry,missed the previous two posts! Further to the texts I mentioned above, we’re told that the dividing wall between Jew and gentile (old Covenant)is ended (Eph2v14,15) and so the feasts are no longer (Col2v16,17). Gentiles are not saved by being grafted into Israel, but both Jew and Gentile are saved out of their backgrounds by being grafted into Christ(Eph2v16-22). I think Mat5v17-18 may mean Old Covenant Law remains in force until all is fulfilled at the cross (see Jo19v28-30).

  • Phil

    Sorry,missed the previous two posts! Further to the texts I mentioned above, we’re told that the dividing wall between Jew and gentile (old Covenant)is ended (Eph2v14,15) and so the feasts are no longer (Col2v16,17). Gentiles are not saved by being grafted into Israel, but both Jew and Gentile are saved out of their backgrounds by being grafted into Christ(Eph2v16-22). I think Mat5v17-18 may mean Old Covenant Law remains in force until all is fulfilled at the cross (see Jo19v28-30).

  • Phil

    Sorry Arnold, for jumping in like that. I came across your site on my phone and just thought i’d comment. I hope you don’t mind!

  • Phil

    Sorry Arnold, for jumping in like that. I came across your site on my phone and just thought i’d comment. I hope you don’t mind!

  • http://arnoldgamboa.com Arnold

    No problem, Phil. Thank you for your contribution on the discussion.

  • http://arnoldgamboa.com Arnold

    No problem, Phil. Thank you for your contribution on the discussion.